Daniel 8:13 · Bible study
Daniel 8:13 Commentary: The Cry for an End to Desecration
Hebrew · 11 what the commentators say
Meaning in one sentence
Two angels ask 'How long?' as the temple is trampled. An in-depth study of Daniel 8:13, its historical context, and its significance for today.
Research Summary
- Meaning: Two holy ones (angels) ask how long the desecration of the temple and persecution of God’s people will last, answered in v. 14.
- Key words: Qadosh (holy one/angel), tamid (continual/burnt offering), pesha’ shomem (transgression that makes desolate), mirnas (trampling).
- Main debate: Identity of “the certain one” (Palmoni), an unknown angel or Christ the “wonderful numberer”; also whether the vision refers solely to Antiochus or also to a future antichrist.
- Theological theme: God’s sovereignty over the duration of suffering; the cry of the faithful for vindication and restoration.
- Best use: A model for lament and trust in God’s timing when worship is hindered or persecution arises.
Translation Comparison
BSB Berean Standard Bible 2020
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?”
WEB World English Bible 2000
Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who spoke, “How long will the vision about the continual burnt offering, and the disobedience that makes desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the army to be trodden under foot be?”
KJV King James Version 1769
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
ASV American Standard Version 1901
Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said unto that certain one who spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the continual burnt-offering, and the transgression that maketh desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
YLT Young's Literal Translation 1898
`And I hear a certain holy one speaking, and a certain holy one saith to the wonderful numberer who is speaking: Till when is the vision of the continual sacrifice , and of the transgression, an astonishment, to make both sanctuary and host a treading down?
Darby Darby Bible 1890
And I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that one who spoke, How long shall be the vision of the continual [sacrifice] and of the transgression that maketh desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden down under foot?
Douay-Rheims Douay-Rheims Bible 1899
And I heard one of the saints speaking, and one saint said to another I know not to whom, that was speaking: How long shall be the vision, concerning the continual sacrifice, and the sin of the desolation that is made: and the sanctuary, and the strength be trodden under foot?
Translations in other languages (10 available)
Y oí un santo que hablaba; y otro de los santos dijo á aquél que hablaba: ¿ Hasta cuándo durará la visión del continuo sacrificio, y la prevaricación asoladora que pone el santuario y el ejército para ser hollados?
Depois ouvi um santo que falava; e outro santo disse ao que falava: Até quando durará a visão do contínuo sacrifício , e da transgressão assoladora, de modo que o santuário e o exército são entregues para serem pisoteados?
J’ entendis parler un saint; et un autre saint dit à celui qui parlait: Pendant combien de temps s’accomplira la vision sur le sacrifice perpétuel et sur le péché dévastateur? Jusques à quand le sanctuaire et l’ armée seront-ils foulés?
Ich hörte aber einen Heiligen reden; und ein Heiliger sprach zu dem, der da redete: Wie lange soll doch währen solch Gesicht vom täglichen Opfer und von der Sünde, um welcher willen diese Verwüstung geschieht, daß beide, das Heiligtum und das Heer zertreten werden?
Daarna hoorde ik een heilige spreken; en de heilige zeide tot den onbenoemde, die daar sprak: Tot hoelang zal dat gezicht van het gedurig offer en van den verwoestenden afval zijn, dat zo het heiligdom als het heir ter vertreding zal overgegeven worden?
Poi udii un santo che parlava; e un altro santo disse a quello che parlava: “Fino a quando durerà la visione del sacrifizio continuo e la ribellione che produce la desolazione, abbandonando il luogo santo e l’esercito ad essere calpestati?”
Tedym usłyszał jednego z świętych mówiącego: i rzekł ten święty do onego, który mając policzone tajemnice, mówi: Dokądże to widzenie o ofierze ustawicznej i przestępstwo pustoszące trwać będzie, i święte usługi, i wojsko na podeptanie podane będzie?
И услышал я одного святого говорящего, и сказал этот святой кому-то, вопрошавшему: "на сколько времени простирается это видение о ежедневной жертве и об опустошительном нечестии, когда святыня и воинство будут попираемы?"
我聽見 有一位 聖者 說話，又有一位 聖者 問那 說話 的聖者說：「這除掉常 獻的燔祭和施行毀壞 的罪過，將 聖所 與軍旅（或譯：以色列的軍）踐踏 的異象，要到 幾時才應驗呢？」
Then there came to my ears the voice of a holy one talking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was talking, How long will the vision be while the regular burned offering is taken away, and the unclean thing causing fear is put up, and the holy place crushed under foot?
Verse in Context
Original Language (Biblical Hebrew)
Old Testament · Biblical Hebrew · Daniel 8:13
Source: STEPBible TAGNT/TEHB (CC-BY 4.0). Click or tap a morphology code to see the full parsing.
Scholars' Consensus
Commentators agree that this verse reports a conversation between two holy ones (angels) overheard by Daniel. The Cambridge Bible notes that “saint” here means “holy one,” that is, an angel (as in Dan 4:13). Barnes, Calvin, and Matthew Henry all concur that the speakers are angels. The question “How long?” refers to the duration of the vision, the suspension of the daily sacrifice, the “transgression that makes desolate” (Antiochus Epiphanes’ desecration of the temple), and the trampling of both the sanctuary and the people of God (the “host”). The answer is given in the next verse, 2,300 evenings and mornings (v. 14). The identity of “that certain one” (Hebrew palmoni, “the wonderful numberer”) is less certain; some see an angel, others the pre-incarnate Christ. But the core question is agreed: God’s people cry out for an end to the profanation of worship and the persecution of the faithful.
How settled is the interpretation?
Interpretive difficulty: Medium
Main views:
- Historical-Antiochus view: The surrounding context (Dan 8:9‑12, 23‑25) details Antiochus Epiphanes, and the 2,300 days match the period of temple desecration.
- Dual-fulfillment view: Jesus cites the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt 24:15), linking Antiochus as a type of a future antichrist.
- Symbolic-timeline view: Some Christians interpret the 2,300 days as symbolic of a longer era of tribulation, not to be taken literally.
What is clear: The question concerns the duration of the desecration of the sanctuary and the trampling of God’s people, and God provides a specific answer in the following verse.
What Scholars Agree and Debate
| Topic | Agreed | Debated |
|---|---|---|
| Identity of the holy ones | All commentators agree that the 'holy ones' (qadosh) are angels, not human saints. | Whether the second holy one addresses an angel or the pre‑incarnate Christ. Some (Gill, JFB) see Christ as 'Palmoni'; most (Barnes, Calvin, Cambridge) maintain it is an angel. |
| The 'transgression that makes desolate' | It refers to the desecration of the temple, historically by Antiochus Epiphanes. | Some (JFB, Matthew Henry) see a double fulfillment: Antiochus as a type and a future antichrist (cf. Matt 24:15). Others limit it to the Maccabean period. |
| The meaning of 'host' (tzava) | The 'host' is the people of God, not the angelic host or military hosts. | A few interpreters (not in supplied data) have taken 'host' as the angels, but the commentators here consistently identify it as Israel. |
Historical & Cultural Context
Daniel 8 records a vision set in the third year of Belshazzar (c. 553 BC). The ram (Media‑Persia) and goat (Greece) give way to a “little horn” that grows great and attacks the “prince of the host” (God himself) and the temple. The historical referent is Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175, 164 BC), the Seleucid king who persecuted Jews, forbade the daily sacrifice, erected an altar to Zeus in the temple, and slaughtered the faithful. This “abomination that desolates” (Dan 11:31; 12:11) is the setting for the angelic question in v. 13.
The phrase “transgression that makes desolate” (Hebrew pesha shomem) captures both the act of rebellion (setting up an idol) and its effect, horror and ruin. The word shomem can mean “appalling” as well as “desolating” (Cambridge Bible). The sanctuary was to be “trodden down” (cf. Isa 63:18), and the “host” (the people of Israel) were given over to trampling. The vision thus answered the aching question of God’s people: “How long, Yahweh?” (Ps 79:5; Isa 6:11). The answer, 2,300 evening‑morning sacrifices, marked a limited period of testing, after which the sanctuary would be cleansed (v. 14).
Textual Notes
The supplied sources note no significant textual variants for Daniel 8:13. The Hebrew text is considered stable, with the only difficulty being the rare word palmoni (פלמוני), which occurs nowhere else in Scripture. The translations vary in rendering it as “that certain one” or “the wonderful numberer,” but these are lexical decisions, not textual corruption.
Reception History
Throughout church history, Daniel 8:13 has been a touchstone for believers facing persecution. Early Christian writers saw the question “How long?” as a cry of the martyrs under the altar (Rev 6:9‑10). In the medieval period, the verse was often read in Advent and Lenten liturgies, expressing longing for God’s deliverance. Reformers like Calvin used it to comfort the persecuted church, showing that God sets a limit on suffering. Modern interpreters continue to apply it to any situation where worship is suppressed, trusting that God’s timetable will lead to cleansing and restoration.
Preaching This Verse
Three‑Point Outline
- The Cry for an End, The holy ones ask “How long?” This question echoes throughout Scripture (Ps 74:9; Isa 6:11; Rev 6:10). It acknowledges that suffering has a limit and calls on God to act.
- The Nature of the Crisis, The desecration is both physical (the temple trampled) and spiritual (the daily sacrifice stopped, false worship installed). The “transgression that makes desolate” strips away the means of grace.
- The Response of Hope, God does not leave His people guessing. He gives a specific number of days (v. 14), proving that He holds history in His hand and will bring restoration.
Five‑Point Outline
- Heaven’s Interest in Earth’s Trials, Angels discuss the length of persecution. God’s heavenly court is aware of every detail.
- The Daily Sacrifice and Its Removal, Worship is central. When worship is forbidden, God’s people feel the loss most keenly.
- The Rebellion That Brings Ruin, “Disobedience that makes desolate” (NKJV) is rebellion against God that leaves spiritual devastation.
- The Sanctuary and the Host, Both the place of worship and the people of God are under attack. The enemy targets both sacred space and living stones.
- The Implied Answer, The very asking of “how long” implies that the desolation is not forever. Judgment is temporary; cleansing is coming.
Illustration Hooks
- A Community After Disaster, Think of a neighbourhood after a flood or fire: people asking, “How long before we can go home? How long until things are normal?” The question is raw, but it holds onto the possibility of restoration.
- An Unfair Suspension, Imagine a beloved school or church building closed indefinitely due to circumstances beyond your control. The prayers and petitions for it to reopen mirror Daniel’s overheard conversation.
Questions Your Congregation Is Asking
- “Does God care how long my suffering lasts?”
- “When evil seems to win, is there a plan?”
- “Why does God allow His own worship to be trampled?”
Leading a Discussion
Daniel overhears an angelic conversation. The question “How long?” rises from the heart of suffering. This passage invites us to bring our own “how long” questions to God, trusting that He has a timeline and a purpose.
Discussion Questions
- Read Daniel 8:13‑14. What does the question “How long” reveal about the angels’ concern? How does it reflect Daniel’s own distress?
- The word “transgression that makes desolate” (v. 13) combines rebellion with ruin. In what ways does sin bring desolation to personal lives and communities?
- Why do you think God reveals a specific number of days (2,300) rather than keeping the duration vague? What does that tell us about God’s sovereignty?
- This verse is set in a time when worship was forbidden. How can believers maintain worship when outward forms are taken away?
- Compare this “how long” with Psalm 79:5 and Revelation 6:10. What pattern do you see? How does the Bible answer the problem of delayed justice?
- Who is the “certain one” (palmoni)? Some see an angel, others Christ (the “Wonderful Numberer”). How does the identity of the listener change how we hear the question?
- How does knowing that heaven discusses our trials (angels conversing) affect your view of God’s care for you?
Word Study
The key original-language words in this verse. Select any word for its full lexicon entry — meaning, every occurrence in Scripture, and related words.
Cross-References
Source: Treasury of Scripture Knowledge (TSK, public domain)
| Deuteronomy 33:2 | He said, “Yahweh came from Sinai, and rose from Seir to them. He shone from Mount Paran. He came from the ten thousands of holy ones. At his right hand was a fiery law for them. |
| Judges 13:18 | Yahweh’s angel said to him, “Why do you ask about my name, since it is incomprehensible?” |
| Psalms 74:9 | We see no miraculous signs. There is no longer any prophet, neither is there among us anyone who knows how long. |
| Psalms 79:5 | How long, Yahweh? Will you be angry forever? Will your jealousy burn like fire? |
| Isaiah 6:11 | Then I said, “Lord, how long?” He answered, “Until cities are waste without inhabitant, houses without man, the land becomes utterly waste, |
| Isaiah 9:6 | For a child is born to us. A son is given to us; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. |
| Isaiah 63:18 | Your holy people possessed it but a little while. Our adversaries have trodden down your sanctuary. |
| Daniel 4:13 | “I saw in the visions of my head on my bed, and behold, a holy watcher came down from the sky. |
Interlinear and lexical data from STEPBible (CC BY 4.0). Cross-reference data from OpenBible.info (CC BY 4.0). Commentaries are public domain.
For personal reflection
Read the devotional page — prayer, application, and "for families"
What the Commentators Say
9 public-domain commentaries, condensed into plain language.
Adam Clarke's Commentary Methodist/Wesleyan 1826
Clarke identifies the "one saint" and "another saint" in this verse as two angels, not human beings. Their conversation centers on asking how long the sanctuary would suffer desecration under enemy control.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible Protestant 1832
Barnes identifies the "saints" as angels, not earthly believers, because one angel could explain the vision's timeline. He notes the unique Hebrew word Palmoni simply means "a certain one" whose name is unknown, not "the numberer of secrets" as the margin suggests. The point is that Daniel overheard unnamed angels discussing what he could not yet grasp.
Calvin's Commentaries Reformed 1564
Calvin emphasizes that God sent an angel to ask the question on Daniel's behalf because the prophet was too terrified to inquire himself. This act shows God's fatherly care, meeting his servant in his weakness to prevent him from being overwhelmed by the severity of the trial. The angel's perfect holiness stands in contrast to human frailty.
Geneva Bible Notes Reformed 1599
Then I heard one of the Saints speaking, and one of the Saints spake vnto a certaine one, saying, Howe long shall endure the vision of the dayly sacrifice, and the iniquitie of the desolation to treade both the Sanctuarie and the armie vnder foote?
Gill's Exposition of the Bible Baptist 1748
Gill identifies the two speakers as holy beings: the first could be a created angel or the eternal Word, Jesus Christ. The second, an angel called "the wonderful numberer," asks how long the vision will last, showing that even angels turn to Christ, who alone knows the hidden times.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary Protestant 1871
JFB notes that Daniel, not knowing the angels' names, heard one ask about the duration of the suspended sacrifice. He identifies "the transgression of desolation" as Antiochus's desecration of the temple, while also seeing a parallel to Rome and the final Antichrist.
Keil & Delitzsch OT Commentary Protestant 1876
Keil-Delitzsch insists that the "host" in the vision is the people of Israel, not the Syrian army. They understand the "transgression"
Matthew Henry's Commentary Reformed/Presbyterian 1710
Henry identifies the ram as the Medo-Persian empire, noting that its second, higher horn signified Persia's eventual supremacy over Media. The goat represents Greece, and its single notable horn is Alexander the Great. The little horn that later arises, he explains, is Antiochus Epiphanes, who in pride attacked God's people and heavenly worship.
Wesley's Explanatory Notes Methodist/Wesleyan 1754
Wesley identifies the "one saint" as a single holy angel, not a human. The angel's question "How long" refers specifically to the period of Antiochus's persecution against God's people, including the trampling of the sanctuary and the host.